Discovery scanner musings

24th December 2013 – 5.50 pm

The home system looks about the same as yesterday, right down to having just me inside it. Not for long, though. I can be an agent of change! Okay, so the change involves taking me out of the home system and not making home itself a hotbed of activity, but still, it's a change. On top of that, jumping to our neighbouring class 3 w-space system sees a Viator transport visible on my directional scanner.

There's a tower in C3a too, probably where the Viator is, and even though the tower isn't where it was from my last visit to the system it's not difficult to locate its new position. There being only five planets and ten moons sprinkled amongst them can't keep a tower hidden for long, so I quickly learn that the Viator is inside the tower's force field and empty of a capsuleer. Fair enough. I can get down to scanning the nine anomalies and nineteen signatures.

Gas, a weak wormhole that merely reminds me how the discovery scanner is killing any sense of adventure I have in exploring w-space these days, more gas, two chubby wormholes that probably lead back in to dead systems but in some topsy-turvy bizarro way are my best opportunity for stumbling in to other ships, another weak wormhole that makes me want to cry, and scanning finishes off with a touch more gas. That was fun.

I check the viability of the chubsters first, considering that one will be the system's static exit to low-sec. The beautiful wormhole to Kor-Azor is joined by a K162 from class 4 w-space. That'll do, I suppose. I divert through the U210 to Kor-Azor to get an emergency exit or entrance, depending on your point-of-view, and ignore the couple of red pilots that pass through without coming my way. I doubt they even know who I am.

Back to C3a and in to C4a, where two towers show up on d-scan without any ships. Perhaps that means there is another K162 to lead me further backwards through the constellation. Or perhaps it means I'll warp to the edge of the system to find a third tower with four piloted ships. I see a Cheetah covert operations boat, Osprey cruiser, Scythe cruiser, and Drake battlecruiser at the tower, and there looks to be some activity.

But it's just that, looks of some activity. The Cheetah is running laps around the tower, within the force field, and that's about it. Maybe the pilots are wondering if they have enough reps to take their Drake in to the C3 to clear some anomalies. But even with effectively nothing happening I don't care to scan the two signatures, not with the second being near the tower. I don't want to give away my being in the constellation for no good reason. I just head back to C3a to investigate the other wormholes.

The first outbound connection is an I182 link to class 2 w-space. Oh how I used to enjoy such wormholes, offering not just a drop on whoever isn't currently scanning in the destination system but also further opportunity through another wormhole in to more w-space. Now it's just a route to more scanning through dead systems, occupants already and permanently alerted to the new connection about to bring a scout in to their system. I jump through anyway, as an echo of past exploration experiences.

Well, d-scan is clear, and with the farthest planet under 7 AU away it's obvious there is no occupation, activity, or wrecks. I guess I got lucky this time. But, really, what's the point? I'm not sure how much longer I can endure unsurprising w-space. Still I press on. I launch probes to scan, revealing twelve anomalies and five signatures, and the curiosity of an unoccupied class 2 w-space system has my pondering. I would bet ISK right now that the two static wormholes will lead to null-sec and either class 5 or class 6 w-space.

Gas, gas, wormhole, wormhole. Well, the first wormhole I land next to is an N062 to class 5 w-space, which makes the other the null-sec exit. I can safely ignore that and, I suppose, head in to C5a. D-scan is clear again, a blanket scan with my probes reveals twenty-six anomalies and twenty-four signatures, and the lack of ships and almost-inevitability of only finding another outbound connection that will announce my imminent arrival in the next system discourages me from even looking for it.

I pause my backwards journey through C2a to dip in to null-sec, where being alone in a system in Venal has my popping a rat battleship for security status, before returning to C3a and investigating the other outbound wormhole. It leads to class 5 w-space. I almost jump through, but the recurrence of recent latency issues between my controls and the ship's responding gives me more than adequate excuse to not bother. I am already frustrated enough by the discovery scanner that I don't need to deal technical issues too. I'll aim for as stress-free an evening as possible, heading home to go off-line. If only the discovery scanner would die, there would be more life.

  1. 27 Responses to “Discovery scanner musings”

  2. I don't think that the discovery scanner pushes data to potential prey instantly. So you do have some time -- a minute? -- of stealth when you enter a new system. That's how I got those two miners recently. (Maybe they were semi-AFK, but both warped their pods immediately.) It's not much, but hey -- better than nullsec!

    By Von Keigai on Dec 25, 2013

  3. I should mention why I think that. I have noticed that if I toggle "show anoms", I occasionally see a new anom appear. The chance that one would happen to be generated in the same second that I happen to be hitting "show anoms" is low. For multiple times, miniscule. And also, doing that refreshes the data on the other anoms/sigs. So I conclude that data is not pushed immediately. This also concords with my programmerly instinct. It is much easier to make pushes happen intermittently (via a client-side timer calling pull-code, which already exists) than write code to do a real push.

    The ability to trigger updates is also useful for doing carebear stuff in wspace: toggle on/off your "show anoms" to force the update of the discovery scanner.

    By Von Keigai on Dec 25, 2013

  4. I understand the need for the discovery scanner. It is difficult to show people what normally cannot be seen whilst keeping it unseen. Revealing the existence of anomalies and cosmic signatures is necessary to encourage players to use launchers and probes to uncover what those signatures are. At least, it is necessary for new players unfamiliar with exploration.

    All players start the game in high-sec space. Enabling the discovery scanner in high-sec empire space is useful and informative, expanding the game for any player that opens the system map and wonders what the red spheres and green dots are. Outside of high-sec, I doubt the utility of the discovery scanner.

    I don't know how many new players venture outside of high-sec without joining a corporation or having similar support from guides and other reading materials. I suspect the number is few, if any. The number of players who would leave high-sec without knowing about probes or exploration would probably be negligible, making the discovery scanner irrelevant. Players will either be scanning, because that's what they are there for, or they won't care for the exploration content. Few ships have the capability of casually fitting a probe launcher, after all.

    The goal of engaging players in exploration content via the discovery scanner weakens as the security status of the systems decreases. It is arguably needed in high-sec, not really necessary in low-sec, and almost no one will reach null-sec without knowing about the available content. Moreover, it is impossible to reach w-space without scanning and resolving a cosmic signature, and so the player must know about the mechanics involved, one way or another. The discovery scanner is not only not needed in w-space, it is the antithesis of w-space, where the whole theme concerns the unknown.

    I don't care if we get a minute's grace before a new signature is pinged to any and every ship in the system, or five minutes, or half-an-hour. There is no place for the discovery scanner in w-space, and it needs to be disabled.

    By pjharvey on Dec 26, 2013

  5. I agree in principle that w-space would be better if the discovery scanner were disabled there. But in practice, a number of things have fall into place for it to alert pilots to a new wormhole opening: they have to have all signatures scanned down or at least counted, they have to know how it works, they have to notice and not be distracted by something else when the signature appears.

    I'd probably consider it a worse problem if I read about more actual cases where one or more potential targets did seem to be spooked by the scanner. For example, enter a system by an inbound wormhole and a piloted, active hauler appears recently arrived inside POS shields, or combat ships POS up leaving wrecks inside an active anomaly. I have personally read or seen few actual cases where the scanner likely caused the victims to flee.

    Like I said, I do consider it suboptimal for w-space. And also, you are clearly significantly more experienced in w-space than I am. But I (and possibly others) would be more convinced that it's a serious problem by real-world instances of likely targets being spooked.

    By Fenjay on Dec 27, 2013

  6. Pretty much everyone in w-space worked out pretty early to ignore all signatures in the scanning interface and watch for anything new, rather than try to spot an addition to a list. Flicking the 'show anomalies' toggle on and off to force an update occasionally is not rocket science either, and has also become common knowledge for anyone who was used to updating d-scan to watch for potential threats.

    It's worth remembering how updating d-scan was the primary means for detecting changes to the system, so occasionally checking for new signatures using the discovery scanner is a piece of cake in comparison. New signatures, mind you, not just scanning probes or ships warping to your position. That's some serious early warning. Any capsuleer who has survived for any amount of time in w-space is used to being alert. Having a w-space pilot watch the discovery scanner is like asking a computer to run a screensaver.

    As for actual cases where the discovery scanner has obviously influenced circumstances, I agree that they seem to be rarer than they should. I have been involved in a few instances myself, on both sides of the equation, but I think the lack of cases is a more general lack of activity. Just as I haven't scared many pilots back in to their tower, neither have I had many opportunities to hunt pilots, and certainly not through outbound wormholes. Almost all of my kills now come from venturing through K162s, and that's whilst trying to remain optimistic about outbound links.

    By pjharvey on Dec 28, 2013

  7. I thought that I'd give you an opinion from the other point-of-view.

    I live in a wormhole and am not really interested in running around into other people's wormholes and trying to kill them, at least at the present time. I'm interested in running the sleeper sites, mining, and gas mining in my wormhole. That said, I will defend myself and my corp if needed.

    For my safety, I really like the discovery scanner. I know everything about my wormhole system all the time. If it is 'safe' in my wormhole and I'm running sleeper sites or mining, I am refreshing the discovery scanner every few seconds as well as checking dscan on a regular basis. If a new cosmic signature appears, I immediately head for my POS to grab a scanny boat. What I do next depends upon what I find.

    By the way, it isn't necessary to turn 'Show Anomalies' off and back on to refresh the scanner. Click on 'Show' button in the lower right corner to refresh the scanner.

    There is a major drawback to the discovery scanner, but I'm not sure that I'd want it turned off again. The drawback is that it has become harder to make money in the wormhole. There are so many more Eve players are scanning and there are many more wormholes being spawned into my system. As I don't fly HIC's yet, I have to use a battleship to close exits and I don't like the risks of getting stuck on the wrong side. It has happened a couple of times.

    By Dante on Dec 29, 2013

  8. "It's worth remembering how updating d-scan was the primary means for detecting changes to the system, so occasionally checking for new signatures using the discovery scanner is a piece of cake in comparison."

    No, checking your cloaked alt on a second account, on a second monitor, with a single scan probe covering the entire system and showing any new signatures, or with a bunch of combat probes out covering the entire system, was the primary means for detecting changes to the system, for people who weren't 'doing it wrong'. The discovery scanner moves that functionality over to the ship scanner, so that people with 2 (or ten) accounts don't have quite so much of an advantage over people with just 1 account. Having a second account set up to scan wasn't 'skillful' in any meaningful way, requiring the second account simply weeded out those who A. couldn't afford a second account. B. were playing on a dinosaur computer which couldn't run a second account. or C. had some romantic notion about playing on a single account in an MMORPG.

    Personally, I'm the person with 10 accounts, for whom the discovery scanner merely makes slightly more convenient the same functionality I already had. I certainly understand why you find the gameplay less enjoyable now than before the change; but I wonder if you've tried looking at it from the viewpoint of those 3 groups A,B, and C above, and from the viewpoint of a neutral observer? From that viewpoint, do you think those three groups deserve any consideration? Do you think CCP should listen to your viewpoint instead of the viewpoint of those three groups above, and why? Keep in mind that there was really no feasible way for CCP to prevent someone getting the current benefits of the discovery scanner by simply using an alt with deployed combat probes, and so equalizing the playing field with the discovery scanner was there only real recourse to significantly address the concerns of the above 3 groups.

    By Rammstein on Dec 29, 2013

  9. My viewpoint is the viewpoint of those three groups. That should be obvious from the text you quoted. As for a neutral observer, how about 'I know everything about my wormhole system all the time'? Maybe I'm in the minority, but that sentence strikes me as being against the fundamental nature of w-space, and almost defines what is wrong with the discovery scanner in w-space. It has often been said that CCP never expected, or wanted, players to occupy w-space. It was meant to be harsh, inhospitable, unknown.

    That some players considered it necessary to deploy one pilot, often an alt, to permanently scan a system for new signatures shows how important system security is in w-space. This permanent scanning may have not have been a fun task, but it remained a choice to do it. Keep updating your probes, keep updating d-scan, or risk being ambushed. That was w-space life. Work for your intelligence.

    Having a wormhole newly opening in to a system used to be a significant threat. Now it isn't. Maybe some corporations were already mitigating the risks before the discovery scanner, but introducing the scanner was not the right solution for how to handle the problem of w-space system security. You don't improve an important aspect of a game by trivialising it for everyone.

    Who gets to tell who to adapt or leave?

    By pjharvey on Dec 29, 2013

  10. As I don't fly HIC's yet, I have to use a battleship to close exits and I don't like the risks of getting stuck on the wrong side. It has happened a couple of times.

    Well, those are the risks, Dante. I can't really be encouraging about it in a positive way. You just have to learn to live with the risks and deal with the consequences.

    That probably makes me sound like an arse. But we recently got our maths wrong and had Fin trapped on the wrong side of a collapsing wormhole, in an Orca, without a scanned exit, and surrounded by an unexpected fleet. It wasn't fun, but we took the loss in our stride. We have to. Either that, or we move out.

    By pjharvey on Dec 29, 2013

  11. I agree with you, PJ.

    Sometimes I will leave an exit critically destabilized as opposed to risking getting trapped outside in a Raven.

    I read your blog daily, so I saw the entry about that incident with the Orca. That was ugly.

    I had an interesting and unusual encounter one day. This was about a year ago. I got trapped in another wormhole in a battleship. The inhabitants were just watching while cloaked. They uncloaked, fleeted me, and took me to a highsec exit. To add to this story that exit took me to the system in highsec that I call home!

    By Dante on Dec 29, 2013

  12. Heh, that's excellent. Not everyone out there is space-scum like me, and there are always good tales to be told with every kind of encounter.

    And make no mistake, it took many months for me to become comfortable with most aspects of w-space. I wouldn't expect anyone to get there sooner.

    By pjharvey on Dec 29, 2013

  13. I'm on board with you as far as the dumbscovery scanner is concerned. I can also vouch for the fact that the updates aren't pushed however I still don't like it. We've lost a couple of possible engagements due to this scanner being in place and by the time you land on the wormhole with a ship capable of taking something on solo, your targets have already been made well aware of your presence I believe.

    On a different note, I believe we were connected on the day this post was jotted down in your journal as I two landed in a system with a Cheetah running laps around his tower and close by was a wormhole with your corps towers all over the place. Too bad we didn't get the chance to say hi and shoot eachother, would have enjoyed that very much.

    By Narook on Dec 30, 2013

  14. "Who gets to tell who to adapt or leave?"

    CCP does, apparently.

    "Maybe some corporations were already mitigating the risks before the discovery scanner, but introducing the scanner was not the right solution for how to handle the problem of w-space system security. You don't improve an important aspect of a game by trivialising it for everyone."

    To me, 'trivialising it' is a phrase which denotes skill, or the loss of an opportunity to display skill, at least. Where's the skill in having an extra account on which you hit 'scan' every 5 seconds? The skill of paying 15$ a month and having a second monitor, or the skill of hitting a button every 5 seconds? Which of these skills are you mourning the loss of, exactly? As someone who had one of those alts, it was pretty dang boring, and didn't feel 'skilled' at all.

    I don't think that's it at all. I think if every single wormhole had such a scanner alt scanning constantly beforehand, you'd be fine with the 'dumbscovery scanner'. I think what you're upset about is that those people who weren't going through the work to have a dedicated scanning alt before, now get the benefits of one and utilize them.

    That's fine, I can sympathize with that; the thing is, if you're going to be consistent on this topic, then if you're against CCP making true solo-play viable, and for the requirement of having multiple alts logged in to play correctly; then you'd also have to be in favor of nerfing your own solo playstyle when relevant. I.e., when you complain that you can't scram someone solo, we'd reply "so scram with your army of alts, stop complaining, why don't you have 7 pilots logged in, you could apply 21 points of warp disruption if you did?" perhaps we should take away the ability for you to fit a scanner to your t3 boat, so that you're required to fly a scanning alt, as well.

    Now, if that isn't what you are saying, and what you're saying is that you want scanning on a second account nerfed, and also the discovery scanner nerfed, then ok...how, exactly, would that work? Going to need a concrete suggestion there for me to have any idea of what you're proposing.

    I get it, you're bummed, you've listed a number of changes, all of which negatively impacted your gameplay and made my gameplay either easier or less repetitive. I'm not arguing that point, I'm just refining the argument by clarifying the changes and advancing some possible motivations for CCP. In the end, these aren't changes that either one of us asked CCP for, but there must be a reason they were made, and adapt or leave is indeed the choice CCP has presented us, as it always is.

    By Rammstein on Jan 4, 2014

  15. "Keep in mind that there was really no feasible way for CCP to prevent someone getting the current benefits of the discovery scanner by simply using an alt with deployed combat probes, and so equalizing the playing field with the discovery scanner was there only real recourse to significantly address the concerns of the above 3 groups."

    Interesting. What concerns and where have they been raised? Links please.

    I've obviously been operating under the misconception that w-space was generally regarded as being the most difficult space to operate in due to its very nature, and that no changes were required with respect to 'equalizing the playing field'.

    By I have 11 accounts... on Jan 4, 2014

  16. I think if every single wormhole had such a scanner alt scanning constantly beforehand, you'd be fine with the 'dumbscovery scanner'.

    Except no one had a scanner alt scanning constantly, not in the way the discovery scanner does. Now you can just be passing through a system and see a new signature even when you aren't actively looking for it. You can recall your probes after fully scouting a system and a minute later be shown a new wormhole opening up that you were not even looking for.

    Sure, some corporations kept their systems safe when they needed to, but the discovery scanner has some unintended consequences that change the fundamental nature of w-space being unknown.

    then if you're against CCP making true solo-play viable

    Clearly I am not, as I play mostly solo. I have no idea where you get this ludicrous idea from.

    what you're saying is that you want scanning on a second account nerfed

    Not at all, and I don't know why you get that impression. Working to get the information available to you, either having an alt or a player dedicated to scanning, is pretty much the point. It's when you are handed the information without doing anything that I start to have a problem.

    If you don't like scanning for new wormholes to keep safe, if you find it boring, then move out of w-space. Players tell other players all the time that if they don't like CTAs and structure bashing not to move to a null-sec corporation that requires them. The same applies here.

    The solution to necessary scanning being boring is not to make an automatic scanner, it's not to take the process away from the player, it's to make the process more interesting. The hacking mechanic was changed to be more involved, and while I don't think it's quite right yet, it's a better step in the right direction than the discovery scanner is for w-space system security.

    By pjharvey on Jan 4, 2014

  17. @11man: "Interesting. What concerns and where have they been raised? Links please."

    No. You're free to believe that those 3 groups don't have concerns and/or have never raised them, but if you really found it "interesting", you'd have already found such quotes. It's no skin off my back, either way. Cheers.

    @pj: "Now you can just be passing through a system and see a new signature even when you aren't actively looking for it."

    That's true, I don't spend very much time merely passing through systems so I neglected to consider that case.

    "then if you're against CCP making true solo-play viable

    Clearly I am not, as I play mostly solo. I have no idea where you get this ludicrous idea from.

    what you're saying is that you want scanning on a second account nerfed

    Not at all, and I don't know why you get that impression."

    If you're going to reply to out-of-context sentence fragments like that, then of course they're going to look ludicrous. I could go through your posts and chop funny random fragments out of sentences as a joke, but it doesn't seem to be worth the time, eh? You don't really believe that's fair, do you?

    "If you don't like scanning for new wormholes to keep safe, if you find it boring, then move out of w-space."

    I'm certainly not telling anyone to move out of w-space, but it definitely sounds like you're telling yourself to move out of w-space there; as you're actually the one unhappy with the recent changes, not me. They all benefit my playstyle, uniformly.

    By Rammstein on Jan 5, 2014

  18. I quoted segments I felt representative of the paragraph, to avoid quoting the whole paragraph. I did not intend to take your comments out-of-context. It seems to me you presented an either-or position for me, one that is neither either-or nor one I agree with either side of.

    I am not for nerfing solo play. I am not for nerfing alts.

    I'm happy for you that you no longer feel the tedium of constantly scanning with an alt, but that was not a problem the discovery scanner solved, just shifted it to be another, in my opinion, much more serious problem that affects the entire environment of w-space.

    The discovery scanner does not fix any problem that was present with w-space. It breaks w-space.

    By pjharvey on Jan 5, 2014

  19. "I did not intend to take your comments out-of-context. It seems to me you presented an either-or position for me, one that is neither either-or nor one I agree with either side of."

    It was slightly more complicated than that, but I think I was putting it a bit too broadly, as there are actually a number of pve things one can do while having probes out on one account; it's only some things like mining where that would be a huge yield nerf. (e.g. 50% on a mack). I was arguing best practice on one side and your solo play on the other, which was a bad comparison, except for something like mining, where it still works.

    "The discovery scanner does not fix any problem that was present with w-space. It breaks w-space."

    Currently this statement is coming off with "breaks" seeming like it's defined as "makes it not fun for me", which is probably true but unlikely to spur action. I know that a number of top wh alliances have recently either disbanded or left wh space. Is this a trend that started before the discovery scanner, and which the discovery scanner may have been an attempt to stop? Or is this a trend which started after the discovery scanner's introduction? That's the line of reasoning which has the best chance of influencing CCP to make a change, imo.

    By Rammstein on Jan 5, 2014

  20. this statement is coming off with "breaks" seeming like it's defined as "makes it not fun for me"

    No. I have made it clear why it breaks the environment. I am not going to argue semantics any further.

    By pjharvey on Jan 5, 2014

  21. "No. I have made it clear why it breaks the environment. I am not going to argue semantics any further."

    You've been clear how it changes the environment; and I agree, it pretty much changes the environment in the way you say it does. Declaring a change to be one that 'breaks' the environment is a value judgement; bereft of an agreed-upon objective metric to measure how well the environment is working, that kind of value judgement is inherently semantic in nature. I'm not attempting to argue semantics, I'm attempting to point out how we could stop doing that. If you're not interested, that's fine too.

    By Rammstein on Jan 5, 2014

  22. Yes, it's a value judgment. It's my fucking opinion. I feel I am entitled to that.

    By pjharvey on Jan 5, 2014

  23. Yes, totally, and it's your blog, I'm not trying to get you to change your daily posting topics. I'm just saying that here, in this back and forth in this comments section, it seems like we're at the point where looking at larger objective measurements is the next logical place to go, and hopefully the way to influence CCP more productively-and you're saying you don't want to argue semantics, so perhaps you agree. Generally in MMO's there are two ways to break an environment: A. Make it not really work, and it becomes abandoned and dead. B. Make it give disproportionate rewards, so that everyone moves there and the economy breaks. It sounds like you are claiming that WH space has broken in type A. I would propose that there's significant inertia in EVE, as it takes time to set things up, and so if Odyssey's scanning release "broke" wormhole space, that it would take 3-6 months to really see the effects. Here we are, some 6 months later, IIRC, and I'm hearing that most of the major WH alliances have failscaded or moved, in various blogs over the past month or two, mainly in response to SYJ moving to null. My questions to you or anyone else reading this are: 1. Do you agree that this characterization of many WH alliances recently breaking up/moving is accurate and representative? 2. Do you think that the discovery scanner changes are a plausible ultimate cause for 1, if so? 3. Have you seen any analyses on this subject already conducted elsewhere on the internet? and 4. If no to 3, then do you know of a reliable source to obtain population data for wormholes over time?

    By Rammstein on Jan 5, 2014

  24. In searching for wh population data I came upon this quote:

    "Keep in mind, scanning changes have made competition over isk sources more prevalent and increased PVP encounters."

    source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3748520#post3748520

    which I found pretty amusing, and which exemplifies the general rule that no matter what you believe, you'll be able to find someone who has drawn 100% the opposite conclusion from identical assumptions.

    By Rammstein on Jan 5, 2014

  25. I live in a wormhole too, and the discovery scanner is NOT as effective as you suggest. In fact, an active corp with about a dozen people in space (ok, POS spinning) managed to miss about 5 sigs spawning over the course of half an hour. To the extent we actually got told in local about the huge invasion fight going on right next door.
    Someone still has to be at the keyboard and updating the thing for it to work. I guess the only advantages it has is not having to have a deep space probe out to spot new sigs, which means you can do it without risk of detection or an alt. If people didn't have the discovery scanner they'd be using probes to do the same job, which still requires you to hit buttons to see changes.
    If no-one is hitting the refresh button, they won't see the new sig. And if 10+ people from a significant wormhole corp can fail to hit that button for 30 mins, others can too.

    By Serith on Jan 6, 2014

  26. Someone still has to be at the keyboard and updating the thing for it to work.

    Well, yes. But if no one's at the keyboard, there's nothing going on to interrupt either.

    I guess the only advantages it has is not having to have a deep space probe out to spot new sigs, which means you can do it without risk of detection or an alt.

    That's a huge advantage, particularly in cases where you would not normally bother having probes launched and scanning, like passing through systems or returning home after scouting. The discovery scanner is always on, and it's these unintended instances where it is harmful to w-space. And, as you say, it's all done without risk.

    If people didn’t have the discovery scanner they’d be using probes to do the same job, which still requires you to hit buttons to see changes.

    Some people would, not everyone did. The players who choose to look out for threats detect the threats. Those that don't, don't. I don't see why there is an implicit desire to balance the playing field in this regard.

    Besides, that's for the single task of home-system security. The unintended side-effects of learning about the changing number of signatures in every system you pass through, even after you've fully scouted it and recalled your probes, or don't even have probes fitted, surely is not what anyone was clamouring for. Well, not anyone who actually wanted to live in w-space.

    By pjharvey on Jan 6, 2014

  27. "Keep in mind, scanning changes have made competition over isk sources more prevalent and increased PVP encounters."

    Scanning changes. Changes to the scanning process. Even if he meant the discovery scanner specifically, that's only to bring people in from empire space to w-space, and after that the discovery scanner does nothing. I have no objection to the discovery scanner outside of w-space, and never have.

    The point is that, except in edge-cases, you will only ever get to w-space by scanning, at which point the purpose (as I see it) of the discovery scanner has been fulfilled and it is no longer required. There is simply no objective need for the discovery scanner to be in w-space in the first place.

    A. Make it not really work, and it becomes abandoned and dead. B. Make it give disproportionate rewards, so that everyone moves there and the economy breaks.

    This is another false dichotomy.

    Consider changes to low-sec, where there are no sentry guns, no illegal acts, you can claim sovereignty, use bubbles and bombs. The nature of low-sec is fundamentally changed, and those who knew the old low-sec would claim it to be 'broken'. Yet it would not become abandoned and dead, just repopulated by different players.

    I am claiming the same type of change, but not the extent, has happened in w-space with the discovery scanner. It is a pointless, needless change that has broken what was working just fine in the first place. And, no, I don't like it. I'm not the only one. Quite a few veteran players of w-space are seriously displeased with it, some leaving w-space or even the game because of it.

    By pjharvey on Jan 6, 2014

  28. I detest it, but I'll work around it. I camp with my alt mostly, often for days at a time so... realistically unless I'm roaming I'm unaffected.

    I can see how it'd be a nightmare for someone who yo-yos around like you though. Having said that it's amazing how many people actually take no notice of it at all.

    I see you're still getting kills though, so thankfully Darwin still appears to be operating at 100% efficiency in w-space.

    Cake time.

    By Mortlake on Jan 7, 2014

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